Wednesday, April 28, 2010

Marriage and Family Therapist and PhD to KATE: 'Do not use your children to live the high life'

Dr. Linda Mintle has written an excellent, excellent article to Kate for the Christian Broadcast Network. As a Christian myself, I'm very pleased to see another Christian with guts enough to see something very wrong and speak out about it. We are of the view this is exactly what Christians, or frankly, anyone with morals and values, are supposed to do when something is wrong, especially when it comes to eight innocent children. (Rep. Murt is also a Christian) Some highlights:
  • How do plastic surgeries and makeovers help her children?
  • Do not use your children as an excuse to live the high life and hob-nob with the stars.
  • Stop pretending to be an everyday mom sacrificing for the children. We are not so na├»ve as to think that her appearances on Dancing with the Stars have nothing to do with her upcoming book release and new TV show.
  • It’s hard enough for children to go through a divorce without adding absence and celebrity drama to their lives. And what mother thinks that six-year-olds can make decisions about whether or not she should go to Hollywood?
  • The children need a mom and a dad who are physically, emotionally, and spiritually present

Thank you, Dr. Mintle.
http://blogs.cbn.com/familymatters/archive/2010/04/22/kate-start-parenting.aspx


Proverbs 31:9: Speak up and defend the rights of the needy.

48 sediments (sic) from readers:

anonymouse said...

She's just "jellus" of Kate's fame.

2exhausted2name said...

Ouch! Some of those 'christian' comments on her blog aren't very christian-like. I love how they accuse Dr. Mintle of being judgemental, um pot meet kettle?

It's truly astounding to read so many comments that repeat the same defense of Kate nearly word-for-word: "she's a single mom" "she HAS to work" "she's putting food on the table" when none of those are the issue at hand.

In Dr. Mintle's article she stated that one of demands Kate could have made to DWTS is having her children WITH her so she could be the mom she claims she wants to be. She chose instead to leave them weeks at a time and then whine about it.

There might have been some backlash about pulling them out of school but Kate could have very easily gotten them tutors and they wouldn't have been without parents for two months (3 weeks pre-DWTS, 5 weeks on).

As far as I'm concerned Kate can work 24/7, wear revealing clothing, and be the poster child for hair extensions gone wrong. Just stop with the I just wanna be a mom / supermom marketing and the exploitation of the children. Stop letting the children decide (or rather stop blaming your decisions on their non-existant desires) how much filming goes on, where you/they travel to, and any other decision that should be made solely by an adult with the childrens true best interests in mind.

Or better yet. Just stop. Go away already.

Reality Bites said...

To the Admin:

The author makes some valid points - thanks
for sharing!

Here's another interesting read - Kate Gosselin's church letter obtained and published by Radar Online last year.

Excerpt:

WE ARE NOW BOOKING INTO MID 2009. DATES ARE GOING FAST AND ARE VERY LIMITED!!!!!!

Logistics info: First, Jon and I always travel together for safety reasons.

Second, we don't bring our children anymore due to safety/security issues.

And third, we speak to an audience of 100 or more!

We typically ask that the church/organization cover our travel and accommodations (airfare, hotel, car transport to/from the airport on this end and rental car on that end).

As far as a 'speaking fee' goes, we ask for a 'love offering' for church services (which averages around $3000-3500 just to give you an idea, but is by no means a set 'fee'-- we let that up to God to fulfill our needs whether that amount be higher or lower!).

--------

Continued Here:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/07/want-book-jon-kate-speak-your-church-you-better-read-first

another Kate said...

we so need to keep the 8 children in our thoughts and prayers. They are in need of her love and attention. Seems like a simple thing for a parent to do. Try it Kate.

nomoremess said...

What a well thought out, well written article!
AMEN!
She has hit the nails on the heads.

Darcy said...

I read through some of the comments, and the Sheeple are out in force on this site as well. The party line "Kate was cheated on, she has to earn money, it's none of our business how she raises her kids, blah blah blah" is being trotted out again. Are these people given talking points by TLC? Seriously, it's like watching a political show with the obvious "party line"!

And of course, the usual "if you are really a Christian you'd just love her and leave her alone". I suggest these people read their Bibles and review the parts about "loving correction".

DeKonstruction Zlogger said...

Very Good. I suspect there will be more like this coming.

IDModo said...

It was an excellent article, except that Kate could do a lot worse than go to Pamela Anderson for advice. Pam is very involved in her children's lives; she is close to her mother, who watches the kids when Pam is working; she has vowed never to allow photographs or details about her children to be published; she goes to their soccer practices, school events etc.
She is well liked by those who know her, according to many posts on this and other blogs.
I found that comment to be somewhat un-Christian, or possibly just uninformed.

Troy Chula Vista said...

My wife read the book. She thought some parts of the book were ok. BUT, she did find the letters and some parts contradicting each other and it was confusing. My wife liked the fact that Kate mixed in references to God and Faith.

My wife and I talked (yes couples still talk) and I told her that ANYONE can pull verses from the bible and mention religion repeatedly to win the hearts of the faithful who are also fans. When was the last time Kate went to Church? My wife wondered if Kate has ever given back to her communities or church. We wondered why no one ever asked why Kate treated her father & his church the way she did, if she was so faithful.

In a part of the book Kate mentions about her kids having all the things she never had. Thats nice and is probably top on all parents lists, but those parents are probably paying for most "things" and cameras aren't there recording them at Disneyland while people boo thier mom.

dee3 said...

I think it's an excellent article and say bravo to Dr. Mintle.

I especially appreciate her addressing the issue of people who claim a particular affiliation (in this case, a religious affiliation) who are allowed to exhibit some egregious behavior but it's overlooked due to said affiliation.

I'm Jewish (but not religious)...but I can tell you this: IF I was so inclined as to be considering becoming a Christian, one huge factor that would dissuade me would be this overlooking and accepting of non-Christian behavior as long as the person claims to be a Christian and spouts a few Biblical verses as proof. That's sheer hypocrisy to me.

And this whole Zondervan issue....again, hypocrisy...because I DO hold them to a higher standard, claiming they are a Christian publisher.

I truly appreciate people like Dr. Minter who are willing to put themselves on the line to call people on this behavior.

I mean, seriously...I'm going to choose a religion where all you have to do is say the magic words and you get in the club? Even if your behavior is terrible? That's a club I don't want to be a member of.

disgusted in PA said...

What gets me about comments defending Kate is that the Christian idea of "not judging" seems to be applied capriciously. Let's face it, we all judge to one extent or another. By following a particular religion and believing in the teachings of the Bible (for example), aren't you making a judgment that those ideas are good and true?
If you are commenting that Dr. Mintle's tone is harsh and jugmental, aren't you in fact making a judgment?
As for the ROL letter to the churches, shortly after J&K hired a big-time PR team, they started cancelling church commitments in favor of larger, secular venues that would guarantee more money per appearance.

Administrator said...

Dee, Fortunatly I don't believe that Christianity is a religion where you say the magic words and get a free pass for whatever behavior. A few sheeple seem to define it that way, but most Christians I know DON'T. Interesting thought, if Kate weren't Christian would it then be okay with the sheeple to criticize?

Throughout history Christians HAVE spoken up when bad things have happened. My home church dates back to the 1830's, and there is so much evidence documenting their staunch support of the union during the Civil War and AGAINST slavery. They even turned all the pews to face North (lol). But I suppose they should just love thy neighbor, not judge slave owners?

Christians hid hundreds of thousands of Jews during WW2. Christians died helping Jews. Christians took in little children and did fake conversions so they would pass as Christians and not be killed.

At this very moment, a Christian professor at my Christian law school is in Uguanda working to free a young man wrongly imprisoned. My school also has helped to bring into the USA over five Christians from countries where they would be killed. Using legal means with our amnesty laws. Guess we should turn the other cheek though.

And today, Christians are speaking out about genocide in Darfur and other parts of the world, thousands of Christians right now are in those countries risking their lives to stop it.

It is absolutely ludacris to play the Christian card with Kate and claim we have no right to say anything. Actually, we probably wouldn't IF she didn't have kids. But how do they reconcile the eight kids being damaged day after day? Why is it okay to support the mom but not the kids? It makes zero sense.

my9cats said...

Bravo Dee 3. Well written. It's the hypocracy of "true believers" that drove me away from church.

SMB said...

The author says this in the article: "And Kate, it is possible to dictate a contract stating you will do the show if you can have your children with you!"

C'mon. Does she really think it would have been best to pull the kids out of school for five weeks? I saw someone above said she could have gotten a tutor for them on the road. I thought that what you all wanted for the kids was a NORMAL life. And taking the kids with her would (1) tear them away from their school friends, (2) tear them away from the routine of going to school either every day or M/W/F, (3) take them away from their regular nannies, and (4) make them realize even more that they are different from other kids. I think Kate made the right choice to keep them there...not to mention that Jon was there for part of the time they were at home, so they WERE with a parent during those times.

Administrator said...

SMB I actually agree with you and that is the one thing I disagreed with in this article. Kate had no business uprooting the kids and dragging them with her to LA for her own vanity project. How incredibly selfish. There would be an outcry here if she tried to do that.

The solution is don't take jobs 2000 miles away in the first place, not to drag your poor children with you on your selfish ridiculous pursuits.

And she's hinted she might move to LA with the kids, if she ever does that to her children I will scream. I live in LA and I have nothing against raising children here, but Kate's vain superficial lifestyle will only be magnified here and it is so incredibly different than the rural, quiet life of Pennsylvania (where I've also lived for four years). Frankly if I had to chose where to raise children, it would be Pennsylvania, not the Hollywood Hills.

Kelly said...

A little off topic but interesting to note:

Tonight, Jon Gosselin is appearing at a bar in Frederick Maryland called "The Greene Turtle".
His appearance was announced on Monday as a chance for people to have their picture taken with Jon for $10.00 and all the money was supposed to benefit the womans soccer team at Mt. St. Mary's College of which his brother, Tom is the head coach.

Today, Mt. St. Mary's disavowed the benefit stating that the athletic department didn't clear this with the administration prior to issuing a press release and want nothing to do with this benefit. Therefore, the Washington Post is now reporting that Jon will be donating the money to a charity of his choice. Can you say "GOSSELIN FOUNDATION?????

This guy is the Bagwon of Greed.

dee3 said...

To Administrator~

Believe me, I have all the love and respect in the world for all my Christian friends who walk the walk, talk the talk and do the right thing...and these are the majority, thank the Lord.

But...the ones who have persistently attempted to convert me, unfortunately, always seem to come from the "magic word" group....and NEVER seem to comprehend how hypocritical they're coming across to me. I always assure them that I feel certain that God isn't going to just let me get away with that and that I will be required to actually MEAN those magic words.

Listen, there are plenty of hypocrites in every religion, including mine (although I'm not religious but am very culturally Jewish) but I would call a person of my own religion on their hypocrisy if they were exhibiting the same behavior.

Kate has, in fact, used being a Christian and spouting/printing some Biblical passages simply to scam good Christians.

All I'm saying is...look at the BEHAVIOR, not what they are claiming. It's easy to claim something and easy to spout things out of the Bible....but it's more difficult to actually DO it and LIVE it. Christians need to call people like Kate Gosselin on this behavior. It's not fair to other Christians and does not reflect well on them (or anyone of any religion) who allow her to pull this stunt and don't call her on this behavior. And I admire every single Christian who HAS called her on this behavior.

dee3 said...

I apologize if anyone thinks I was painting with a broad brush. That wasn't my intent at all.

The Administrator said it best:

"Dr. Linda Mintle has written an excellent, excellent article to Kate for the Christian Broadcast Network. As a Christian myself, I'm very pleased to see another Christian with guts enough to see something very wrong and speak out about it. We are of the view this is exactly what Christians, or frankly, anyone with morals and values, are supposed to do when something is wrong, especially when it comes to eight innocent children. (Rep. Murt is also a Christian)"

I think Dr. Mintle is awesome, that the Administrator is awesome and that Rep. Murt is awesome.

It's the ones who fall for Kate and give her a pass just because she tosses some Biblical verses in her books and supposedly puts them on her wall.
And fools many Christians with that whole selective reduction issue while meanwhile she's a horrible mother to the 8 she actually chose to give birth to.

AND....I'll be GOOD money that aside from that pink motorbike (which she was forced to donate for a show plot)...that Kate has NEVER donated ONE red cent to not only churches but to ANY charity.

Kelly said...

Just a heads up:

I am planning to attend the "Charity" event this evening in Frederick Maryland featuring Jon Gosselin. Jon will be having his picture taken with those who want to pony up the $10.00

According to the news media here in Baltimore, (WBAL.COM)
Jon will donate the proceeds to a charity of "HIS" choice. Should be interesting since I fully intend to bring a ten dollar bill from a Monopoly game and see how that plays out. I'll bring my camera as well.

Troy Chula Vista said...

I wonder if TLC is going to send a C&D letter to the CBN network. A letter demanding they fire the author and only speak good of thier kash kow from now on.

I wonder how Kate will handle things when she gets Boo'd everywhere she goes. Will she tell the kids that is normal and to ignore it? Kate is a LOOOONG way from the brown paneled walls of her parents double wide.

Ok, well I am off to send a bunch of jpegs and some daily "thoughts of wisdom" to the printers so I can get my book going. It'll be out soon, look for your INITIALS in the Acknowledgement (honest, they could be yours).

Troy Chula Vista said...

I just went to ROL/TLC and watched a video of Tony. WHY in the friggen world does everyone say that "she did good, especially for ALL that she has going on outside"? What the hell does she have going on? A custody issue was raised by Jon, 3 weeks into it and she has 2 shows in the works. Boo friggen Hoo!

She contracted to be on DWTS and should have tried to dance. She got the highest amount (per reports) She barely phoned in her efforts to dance and the Custody issue was just a scam by Jon & her (or TLC told Jon to stop). Wa Wa Wa.. all the way to the bank!

Wonder who TLC will sell the episodes of her shows that don't get aired?

Administrator said...

I think this is the first time I know of that someone with a blatantly Christian organization has spoken up about Kate. This is very significant I think. Keep the tide turning.

KyPastor said...

Admin, I will fully understand if you choose not to post this.


I'm not too sure where to start with this conversation, so I will follow my usual pattern of just jumping in.

I am a Christian Pastor, and have been for over 30 years. Above all else I have learned is that I am never really good at being a Christian, even though I put my heart into it every day. There are so many aspects of the Christian life, and they all boil down (in my mind, anyway) to love. Do you love God? How do you show that?
Do you love your neighbors? How do you show that?

God, I don't believe, will ever ask us to
quote Scriptures to prove our faith, but will ask us how we showed gratitude for all God has done. I'm not sure how well I "measure up" on a daily basis on that count.

That said,
For those who accept the New Testament as the Word of God (and I fully realize and respect that not everyone here is a Christian!) we read in Revelation 3:15-16 in the letter to the Church at Laodicea "I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot! Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth."

My interpretation of that is either say you are a believer and live that full tilt in word and deed, or just forget the whole thing and go about your merry way. Even to decide against God is better than to string God along with
platitudes and false piety and false faith. That as much an abomination to God as anything can be.

This is not to say that we will get it perfectly each minute of each day. Of course not! But God does expect us to try our best, and (again with the Christian beliefs here) is more than willing to forgive us when we humbly confess our failings. Humility and recognition of failure are key. A sincere attempt to do better is just as important. Otherwise, what we have is called
"cheap grace" and it is a slap in the face to
our God and our Redeemer.

Kelly said...

I need to chime in on the christianity thing here.
I was born and raised Catholic. 12 years of Catholic schools and all the guilt that goes with it. I moved away from the church primarily due to the pedophile scandal that erupted within the ranks of the church and how the church went to all lengths to cover it up.

I couldn't support a faith that preyed upon the innocent children yet prayed they wouldn't get caught. I moved away from christianity due to the pious fraternity it had become and the prostylitizing it always does to bring people into that belief who have a belief different than theirs.

I was particularly put off by organized religion when Catholics looked differently upon protestants and Christians looked down at anyone who isn't christian. Are we to assume that Jews won't get to the heaven that christians claim to have an edge on? What about bhuddists, mormons, and all the other sects and faiths that are out there.

In my opinion and not to insult others who differ from mine, I'm spiritual and don't need to attend church each week or church any week for that matter. Going to church doesn't make you any better a person than going to McDonalds makes you a hamburger.

Organized religion, in my opinion, is more of a business and an act of raising money than it is that of helping others. Religion is man made and in some respect, a crutch to keep life civil for fear of what may or may not be on the other side of life. I hope there's a God and I hope this side of life isn't all there is and then eternity is nothing but a coma.

No one has ever come back and said what it's like on the other side. I help people in life because I want to and not because I'm looking for indulgences or atta boy's for a pass onto a cloud and wings to boot. I'm not so sure I'd want to spend eternity with some of the people who claim to be this or that in life as if trying to prove something. I'll just continue to live my life as an example to my children, as a decent, civil and kind person and when the hammer drops, I'll hope that whomever I've been saying prayers to all these years, really does exist. Otherwise, we're all in for a long long nap.

prairiemary said...

To KyPastor-You are SO very right!

SAHM said...

1 Word....... AMEN!!!!!

susan said...

Kelly...ditto on catholic background and the resultant view of christianity. Well said.

nanb said...

Administrator said...
I think this is the first time I know of that someone with a blatantly Christian organization has spoken up about Kate. This is very significant I think. Keep the tide turning.
********************************
Actually there was this article last June.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/juneweb-only/122-11.0.html?start=1

KyPastor said...

To Kelly and Susan,

I truly abhor religion that is based on guilt or fear. I hear your pain with your Church, and know it is not something you can shake off because somebody tells you you should.

I fully understand why organized religion is such a bad experience for so many. I feel blessed that my upbringing in my denomination was based on God's love and loving one another.
Not everyone gets that, and believe it's a crime against God's purpose and a sin against God's children when fear is the basis of faith.

In my own "mainline" denomination, we still do battle with one another over judgment vs. grace.
It is an ongoing struggle to understand each other on these topics that are so strongly felt.
It has caused some to leave the church.

May all the churches learn from past mistakes and
reassess God's point in offering this thing called religion.


Now, I'm afraid I may have pulled us all off-topic, and for that I apologize.

KyPastor said...

Correction: In my post above (11:28 am), it should read, "Not everyone gets that, and I believe it's a crime...." That word "I" is very important in this sentence!

Janie said...

In light of the discussion today, I just wanted to share one of my favorite quotes. It's from Martin Buber, a Jewish philosopher and existentialist.

"God made so many different kinds of people. Why would he allow only one way to serve him?"

This was on the front of a Christmas card I received years ago. I always think of this when I encounter others who believe it's their mission to make me see religion exactly as they do. I appreciate the ongoing discussions here. Peace, everyone!

Sick of Karts and Jons Krap said...

Kelly, I too had the whole Catholic upbringing. My views are exactly like yours. I guess I'm what you would call "Ye of little Faith." I'm more of a show me, prove it to me kind of person. I'm a good person and live my life within, and many times exceeding the the norms of society. I really do hope that there is this place everyone talks about. I can't tell you how many times I've been told by Christians that I'll never see it because I don't accept what "the book" teaches. I don't mean to offend anyone, this is just my opinion, but I believe religion is a crutch based on the fear of death. I don't need religion to guide my moral compass.
Sorry to go OT admin.

NancyB said...

nanb - thanks for posting that article!

NancyB said...

I meant to add to my post that Jodi's sister has that article posted on her blog.

IDModo said...

Kelly- I agree with much of what you said. I am a lifelong Anglican (Episcopalian). Many Christians say I am not really a Christian, because my church does not take scripture literally and holds liberal views about justice and equality for everyone.The small church community I am part of preaches God's love for all.It also suggests that we can become closer to God by questioning our beliefs and looking for answers.We believe that God doesn't want Sheeple.
There is a Buddhist saying that I like: "There are many paths to the top of the Mountain."
If there is in fact a God, may he/she guide you on your path!

just.me said...

On the off chance that Kart has somehow missed this article, I informed her on her Discovery "fan" site about it. Just offering some helpful advice. They printed my comment but who knows how long it will remain?!

cherier1 said...

IDModo said...

There is a Buddhist saying that I like: "There are many paths to the top of the Mountain."


I like this as well and use it when others try to help me "see the light".

Kelly, et al: I feel exactly as you do. I am spiritual but not religious for the reasons you stated and also because of the lack of love and understanding for homosexual people. I can't abide it.

To the commenters on the article who defend Kate by decrying judgment I say: there is a huge difference between judgment and discernment. The former involves a strong emotional evaluation of the situation or self: "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of thinking while the latter involves objective assessment without emotional attachment. It is not the all or nothing or good vs. bad thinking of judgment.

We would be nowhere without discernment; judgment is what brings unhealthy shame.

French Canadian said...

Family Matters: Dr. Linda Mintle

In Response to "Kate, Start Parenting!"



http://blogs.cbn.com/familymatters/archive/2010/04/29/in-response-to-kate-start-parenting.aspx

NancyB said...

Forgot to say that they mentioned this blog in their letters.

NancyB said...

This is Dr. Linda's response to a familiar fan sites many letters ent to her today:

Family Matters: Dr. Linda Mintle
<< Kate, Start Parenting! | Blog Home | Resist Society’s Take on Beauty >>
In Response to "Kate, Start Parenting!"

When I wrote last week’s blog about Kate Gosselin, I was writing from the perspective of a family therapist who has major concerns for what the Gosselin family is doing. Their lives are a media spectacle. That is a fact. I do not believe it is healthy for Kate to stay in the limelight of Hollywood at this time. My opinion is that she needs to get out of spotlight, start healing from the divorce and stop allowing the media to exploit her for ratings. This is a position that most family therapists would take. The break up of her family has to have taken a toll on her and her children’s emotional well-being. And I do not trust Hollywood to look out for the family’s best interests.

I want to thank those of you who emailed me about hate sites directed at Kate. I was appalled to learn of these and saddened by them. I do not hate Kate. There is no place in the heart of any Christian to hate anyone. On the contrary, I am concerned about the choices she is making and the impact they are having on her family. There is, however, a difference between disagreeing with her choices and hating her. I disagree with her choices to stay in front of the media at this time in her life. My prayer for her is to get with God, be directed by His leading and stop allowing the media to exploit her.

For those of you who think she has to be a celebrity to make money to feed her children, I want to ask, is God limited to this as a provision? There are so many other ways that God could provide that wouldn’t exploit her—working with foundations, hospitals, child groups, sponsors, etc. She needs people around her who care about her and her family and who do not want to exploit her. That may be hard to find, as everyone, including Dancing with the Stars, wants her for the ratings she brings.

Tolerance does not mean agreeing with everything someone does. My opinion is that the direction she is headed is not healthy. I can judge what she does against the Word of God and against what I know to be true to raise a healthy family. So let me be clear. My professional opinion is that the road Kate is on will not bring health and healing to her family. My concern is that she has already been exploited and continues to be. Could I have said this in a more loving manner? Yes.

God heals. He restores. He provides. He blesses. But, we have to be obedient to His Word, put Him first, and operate according to His kingdom. Confronting behavior that leads someone down an unhealthy path is not hate. It is actually something we seem to have lost in the name of tolerance. My tone was taken as offensive to some of you and for that I apologize. But my opinion remains, be a mom, get out of the spotlight and take some time to heal.

~ Dr. Linda!

French Canadian said...

Family Matters: Dr. Linda Mintle

In Response to "Kate, Start Parenting!"



http://blogs.cbn.com/familymatters/archive/2010/04/29/in-response-to-kate-start-parenting.aspx

cherier1 said...

IDModo said...

There is a Buddhist saying that I like: "There are many paths to the top of the Mountain."


I like this as well and use it when others try to help me "see the light".

Kelly, et al: I feel exactly as you do. I am spiritual but not religious for the reasons you stated and also because of the lack of love and understanding for homosexual people. I can't abide it.

To the commenters on the article who defend Kate by decrying judgment I say: there is a huge difference between judgment and discernment. The former involves a strong emotional evaluation of the situation or self: "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of thinking while the latter involves objective assessment without emotional attachment. It is not the all or nothing or good vs. bad thinking of judgment.

We would be nowhere without discernment; judgment is what brings unhealthy shame.

just.me said...

On the off chance that Kart has somehow missed this article, I informed her on her Discovery "fan" site about it. Just offering some helpful advice. They printed my comment but who knows how long it will remain?!

Sick of Karts and Jons Krap said...

Kelly, I too had the whole Catholic upbringing. My views are exactly like yours. I guess I'm what you would call "Ye of little Faith." I'm more of a show me, prove it to me kind of person. I'm a good person and live my life within, and many times exceeding the the norms of society. I really do hope that there is this place everyone talks about. I can't tell you how many times I've been told by Christians that I'll never see it because I don't accept what "the book" teaches. I don't mean to offend anyone, this is just my opinion, but I believe religion is a crutch based on the fear of death. I don't need religion to guide my moral compass.
Sorry to go OT admin.

KyPastor said...

To Kelly and Susan,

I truly abhor religion that is based on guilt or fear. I hear your pain with your Church, and know it is not something you can shake off because somebody tells you you should.

I fully understand why organized religion is such a bad experience for so many. I feel blessed that my upbringing in my denomination was based on God's love and loving one another.
Not everyone gets that, and believe it's a crime against God's purpose and a sin against God's children when fear is the basis of faith.

In my own "mainline" denomination, we still do battle with one another over judgment vs. grace.
It is an ongoing struggle to understand each other on these topics that are so strongly felt.
It has caused some to leave the church.

May all the churches learn from past mistakes and
reassess God's point in offering this thing called religion.


Now, I'm afraid I may have pulled us all off-topic, and for that I apologize.

KyPastor said...

Admin, I will fully understand if you choose not to post this.


I'm not too sure where to start with this conversation, so I will follow my usual pattern of just jumping in.

I am a Christian Pastor, and have been for over 30 years. Above all else I have learned is that I am never really good at being a Christian, even though I put my heart into it every day. There are so many aspects of the Christian life, and they all boil down (in my mind, anyway) to love. Do you love God? How do you show that?
Do you love your neighbors? How do you show that?

God, I don't believe, will ever ask us to
quote Scriptures to prove our faith, but will ask us how we showed gratitude for all God has done. I'm not sure how well I "measure up" on a daily basis on that count.

That said,
For those who accept the New Testament as the Word of God (and I fully realize and respect that not everyone here is a Christian!) we read in Revelation 3:15-16 in the letter to the Church at Laodicea "I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot! Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth."

My interpretation of that is either say you are a believer and live that full tilt in word and deed, or just forget the whole thing and go about your merry way. Even to decide against God is better than to string God along with
platitudes and false piety and false faith. That as much an abomination to God as anything can be.

This is not to say that we will get it perfectly each minute of each day. Of course not! But God does expect us to try our best, and (again with the Christian beliefs here) is more than willing to forgive us when we humbly confess our failings. Humility and recognition of failure are key. A sincere attempt to do better is just as important. Otherwise, what we have is called
"cheap grace" and it is a slap in the face to
our God and our Redeemer.

dee3 said...

To Administrator~

Believe me, I have all the love and respect in the world for all my Christian friends who walk the walk, talk the talk and do the right thing...and these are the majority, thank the Lord.

But...the ones who have persistently attempted to convert me, unfortunately, always seem to come from the "magic word" group....and NEVER seem to comprehend how hypocritical they're coming across to me. I always assure them that I feel certain that God isn't going to just let me get away with that and that I will be required to actually MEAN those magic words.

Listen, there are plenty of hypocrites in every religion, including mine (although I'm not religious but am very culturally Jewish) but I would call a person of my own religion on their hypocrisy if they were exhibiting the same behavior.

Kate has, in fact, used being a Christian and spouting/printing some Biblical passages simply to scam good Christians.

All I'm saying is...look at the BEHAVIOR, not what they are claiming. It's easy to claim something and easy to spout things out of the Bible....but it's more difficult to actually DO it and LIVE it. Christians need to call people like Kate Gosselin on this behavior. It's not fair to other Christians and does not reflect well on them (or anyone of any religion) who allow her to pull this stunt and don't call her on this behavior. And I admire every single Christian who HAS called her on this behavior.

Administrator said...

Dee, Fortunatly I don't believe that Christianity is a religion where you say the magic words and get a free pass for whatever behavior. A few sheeple seem to define it that way, but most Christians I know DON'T. Interesting thought, if Kate weren't Christian would it then be okay with the sheeple to criticize?

Throughout history Christians HAVE spoken up when bad things have happened. My home church dates back to the 1830's, and there is so much evidence documenting their staunch support of the union during the Civil War and AGAINST slavery. They even turned all the pews to face North (lol). But I suppose they should just love thy neighbor, not judge slave owners?

Christians hid hundreds of thousands of Jews during WW2. Christians died helping Jews. Christians took in little children and did fake conversions so they would pass as Christians and not be killed.

At this very moment, a Christian professor at my Christian law school is in Uguanda working to free a young man wrongly imprisoned. My school also has helped to bring into the USA over five Christians from countries where they would be killed. Using legal means with our amnesty laws. Guess we should turn the other cheek though.

And today, Christians are speaking out about genocide in Darfur and other parts of the world, thousands of Christians right now are in those countries risking their lives to stop it.

It is absolutely ludacris to play the Christian card with Kate and claim we have no right to say anything. Actually, we probably wouldn't IF she didn't have kids. But how do they reconcile the eight kids being damaged day after day? Why is it okay to support the mom but not the kids? It makes zero sense.

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